" Bad government is not my fault. I don't support that system. It's the people who vote - expecting to get democracy out of it - it's their fault. "

Really? I always thought it's the people don't vote that create the mess. Certainly if you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the outcome of elections.

On the other hand, given your stated views on Conservative/Republican politicians, I would personally :? like to thank you for not voting. :?
I thought the USA was a Republic. But then again even a Republic can become corrupt because of the "human" touch. But I do know a "Democracy" voted Hitler into power. Therefore without checks and balances, even the people make bad mistakes. These things where considered by our Founding Fathers, and they choose a Republic. I agree the system is broken, not because we are a Republic but because we have allowed it to become corrupt. We do not even need Congress or the Senate, we have the "pen". But I would rather return our country to a Republic than any other form of government. As for Canada, I am not Canadian therefore that is not my kettle of fish. But do do nothing is to ensure nothing gets done. Bottom line you don't work at a change, you are part of the problem not the cure.
Miss. Information
griffith7x57 wrote: " I always thought it's the people don't vote that create the mess.

And where is the logic in that view? That's like blaming hit-and-runs on people who don't drive motor vehicles. Your belief in the current system - a system that is grotesquely unfair and undemocratic - makes every political train wreck your mess, not mine. Own it. Don't put it on me. I've rejected that system.

griffith7x57 wrote: " Certainly if you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the outcome of elections.

Hmmm. The right to complain. That's an absurd phrase to begin with. You figure complaining is a right granted by voting? And socks come in threes, yes? I'd say it's a right granted by being born with a mouth. That is, a universal right. In fact, even mutes who don't vote...have the right to complain about politics, through sign language. (When a politician sees a raised middle finger or protest sign...it probably means 'no like'.)

Were you handed a little slip after you last voted that said, "Now you have a right to complain; but non-voters may not complain"? Your statement is also arrogant. In fact, it's hypocritical for those who support our current system of government to complain about it. (Voting really means they support all the problems it brings, too, including corruption.)

Voting and then complaining is like being a member of the Mafia and complaining about the Mafia. Or complaining about vampires, yet remain quite willing to give blood to them.

Politicians are vampires. They feed on votes. But I'm a proud Abraham Van Helsing; vampire hunter. I want them gone.

As someone who flat refuses to support our highly dysfunctional system of government, I'm not hypocritical in criticizing it. The problem is the people who support it...by voting...for whatever yonk appeals to them the most. When it's only yonks running - and currently that is the case in Toronto - the three front-runners are basically Moe, Larry and Curly (which is really delighting a lot of people) - and also federally in Canada (all three party leaders support the oil industry, which is wrecking our planet) - time to take a step back, and ask what worth there is in our system, as it is.

U.S. politics: even worse! The U.S. political system is an overflowing outhouse that could benefit from some dynamite. But actually there's enough methane in their political system to cause a big KABOOM with just a firecracker. I mean, even in Canada, we can smell the stench.
I have learned to understand that logic to one is confusion to another. At that point I respectfully decline to engage and just smile. I also remind myself that this site is for fun, and I dont want the real world to intrude. I deal in politics in the real world, I find rest here. So here's smiling at you kid.
Miss Information/Laurie
Laurie, is there anything you don't do in the real world?  :lol:
TheLadyL wrote: But I would rather return our country to a Republic than any other form of government.

So what is wrong with everyone has a say, all the time, and equality? That is not what the current system gives. Never. True democracy has never existed in any country on this planet. But it would be easy to implement. Much cheaper; much more efficient; more responsive; inherently corruption-proof. All the people doing the lobbying would have to find new jobs. Perhaps in advertising; basically they're hacks.

John Stuart Mill argued, long ago, that representative government was the ideal form. That was only true thanks to geographical distances. With the development of the Internet, that one good argument is now defunct.

Polls routinely indicate how most people (small sample presumed to roughly indicate majority opinion) feel about a certain issue. To have polls where millions of people participate (hack-proof system, which I firmly believe is possible), voting from the comfort of their own homes, and those results become decisions, then fed to civil service to implement as policies...I suggest hard to argue against it.

Representative government is a dice roll, at best. They're under no obligation to keep their word and do what they claim they will do. Obama promised more open government. Americans have gotten the exact opposite. He promised to close Gitmo. He hasn't done that. America supports the fanatical Zionists - Israel is not Jewish, it's Zionist, which may as well make it Nazi - and the Zionists are now engaged in genocide in Gaza. Why does America support Israel? Oh, because the government wants to. And why do most Americans think the state of Israel is Jewish...when in reality most of the Jews in Israel oppose their state, and want to live in peace with the Palestinians, not take their land and murder them? Because their government wants them to think it's Jewish. But huge rallies of Jews against their state say otherwise. Opposition has in fact been fierce, over there.

And media routinely pump the government line. In the Republic you believe in, the entire system (including media!) has always been corrupt. Start of the Vietnam war (American participation): we were attacked; unprovoked. Lies. U.S. had been bombing and shelling the north for weeks.

Leaders are liars. They generally lead through deceit. And Iraq...there's a book in itself.

In terms of wise decisions, I'd be more inclined to trust the opinions of 300 people chosen randomly from the street than the opinions of 300 duly elected representatives. Probably more sense in their heads.

Who would vote for endless war? Who would vote for poverty, and more and more people sliding into it? Who'd vote for the gross inequalities that are actually growing?

It's not who is in power. Problem is the system itself. A bad system.

TheLadyL wrote: But to do nothing is to ensure nothing gets done. Bottom line you don't work at a change, you are part of the problem not the cure.

I'm working at the problem, by trying to persuade people: they're fooling themselves in thinking that the archaic system we've lived under for centuries is the best possible system. (Or even democracy, which it isn't!)

What we are getting - thanks to technology - is more and more the world that George Orwell wrote about in his chilling novel, 1984. That is: a world of perpetual war - what we have now, but what we've really had always - and the Ministry of Truth told nothing but lies. Also what we have now. Now that system is building machines to kill people. Autonomous bombers; no pilot on board. Just give it GPS coordinates, it will go kill. But it's no solution. It's making the problem of terrorism worse and worse, in fact. Just as the stupid war on drugs has greatly promoted violence. These are policies that make no sense. Policies I doubt the majority support. The feudal system likes the serfs semi-asleep. Don't think too much about what's going on. Even if it's appalling.

To trust that system to do other than get worse and worse is foolish. I believe the only solution that is in any way realistic is to abandon the old system (which is from the time of the Pharaohs) and move to true democracy. Infinitely better. And there's absolutely no reason it can't exist; but for people having mental blocks and failing to see how a much better future can happen.

What's the first step in building a new house? Tear down the old one. But the new system would not need a house! White House, Congress, Parliament building should all be turned into museums. We don't need them! We'd all be better off without them. We'd all be democracy's house. We'd all have some power all the time. One person; one vote. Instead of a few people voting for us. I can't see why anyone would believe in that.

Money runs things now. Feudal system. Them what have, control. There is no denying that. It's always been so.

True democracy, in contrast, means the best ideas win. Money no longer controls things. Getting money out of politics: good luck! I say it can't be done. It's so riddled with corruption now, that house is beyond repair. It needs abandoned. Even courts won't do it, because they are part of the same feudal system. Law - as currently practiced - is actually only a sugar coating over the bad medicine of power. Courts, police, government...they all sleep in the same bed, and it may as well be in a castle. It's easy to fool people. Hitler found it easy. Gift of the gab. That's enough. And one psychopath can lead an entire nation anywhere, even to insane conduct. He proved it. Presidents do much the same. Nicer words, maybe. But the bombs keep falling. And only messes result.

What did WWII accomplish? Hitler's demise, but the prospect of thermonuclear war. We incinerate much of the northern hemisphere. That's still not gone as a threat. The missile are still ready to fly 24/7.

A new system wouldn't mean chaos. On the contrary. There'd be actually more stability in a system where everyone was equal and where everyone had a say, all the time. Got a beef? Then push it until it's an issue, that creates a vote. Maybe you win! Then people would take more interest in issues, rather than tuning out, as many are doing.
Well Miss Information, what do you say to that?  :lol:  You won't say anything, because when you are up against someone as intelligent as Rod, you back away smiling and pretending that you feel sorry for him because he has no logic.  You say you are into "everything" in the real world, but when you come up again someone who can stand their ground, you quit!! :lol: .........and try your best to make the other person look bad while Laurie is soooooo damn smart.  Well, I think you met your match here.  :D
According to Jessy..."you feel sorry for him because he has no logic." Logic has been my work for decades. And I'm good at it. Even before it was my work, I studied science, physics, which is also very logical. Its whole essence and every formal step is logic. And before that, I studied logic at university, in philosophy courses. So there is no logic in your statement. Some days, I have it down better than most computers. And believe me, that takes some doing!

I think you just got your feelings hurt, Jessy. So you're taking a petulant swing at me, there. How big of you. Not.

Emotions...aren't logic. Only rarely are they logical. They can be guided by logic. What I try to do. Guide mine with logic. But that happens only in people inclined to do that. (A minority.) Two different worlds. And wow are they different. Logical people know that. Logical people are rare. That's why our world is chaotic. Emotions...not thinking. But a thinking man can also be sensitive. More than you. I don't do petulant swipes. I leave that to others. To, for example, Christians, so-called.

Oops. Did that sound petulant? I hope not.
Wow Rod, first in an email last night and now on the forum.  I think it is YOUR feelings that got hurt because I refused your sexual advances. I would like to be wined and dined and let nature take it's course, not decide up front how far I will go with you to fulfill your sexual fantasies.... :lol:

<<<<<Jessy thinking:  Funny how every time I refuse a man on this site, first he attacks me, then he beats up Christianity>>>>> 
TheLadyL wrote: I also remind myself that this site is for fun.

YES!...FUN. And what fun ranting can be! It's like pounding the heck out of a trampoline by jumping up and down on it. You ever do that as a kid? The higher you go, the more you bow in the fabric, and that's YEEHAW! Now I'm really flying! I almost killed myself on a trampoline, but that's neither here nor there. It was still fun.

It's fun to rant, girl. And when you're a professional ranter - I think I qualify, or almost - no certificate yet, but working on it - who dares to rant at you? Nope; they're all too busy holding up garlic. Dang, who let the werewolf in?

I don't rant at anyone; or maybe I do...at everyone? Have you all lost your minds in VOTING FOR PEEPLE??? (sic) But I think I've said my piece, on that subject, yes? Ya! Rant: concluded. You can all heave a sigh of relief now. I know how to shuddup. :)
Jessy wrote: sexual advances.

Nonsense. Just your bull. I've come to know, Christians aren't all that honest. Why I reject it, too. Most go contrary to what Jesus taught; they've so mixed it up in their own minds. I believe in honesty. Obviously you don't, Jessy. You said: no sex. I said: fine. Accepted. I never even suggested sex! Didn't even hint. Au contraire. So you are being really dishonest with that post. Nor have I suggested it to anyone else on here. It's never my goal. So give it a rest. Go lie down. Or is that a 'sexual advance' too?
I could just post the whole thing so everyone can see for themselves what you said to me....but I have more pride than that (at least at the moment).  You are playing with words and putting up a red herring.

I didn't say "no sex".  Read the email again.  We didn't even say the word SEX.  You talked in other words but meaning the same thing.  Right off the bat in fist email wanting to know how far I would go and what is suitable to me as far as cuddling, etc etc.

Now, the big question.  IF you have come to know that Christians are not all that honest Rod, why in the sweet hell, would you want to cuddle me??????????? Surely you read my profile.  

Contacting me when you have such a low opinion of Christians, only proves to me that you were indeed just wanting to use me physically.  I am so glad I saw the red flag in time.

You are pathetic.  
Jessy wrote: Funny how every time I refuse a man on this site, first he attacks me, then he beats up Christianity.

I suspect your dating is not going too well. And I can understand why. If you are an example of a Christian...Christianity needs beaten up. I think I'm more a Christian than you, Jessy. I'm sure I understand the original ideas that Jesus professed much better than you, even though I don't believe in God. Over the centuries, everything got warped. Once the church got their hands it, it bore little resemblance to what he taught. Tolerance, for one thing. You're extremely intolerant. Like most of them. They turned it upside down. They think that makes them better people. Not so. It makes them worse.

One doesn't need to believe in God to be a good person. In fact, in my opinion, it helps to not believe in God. Too much voodoo and superstition in the human psyche. But hey...let's talk history. What have so-called "Christians" done? Oh, just tortured and murdered millions of people. That's historical fact. And...still at it today! Crusades II. The killing hasn't stopped.

But there are also the petty cruelties. Like character smear. Right? Maybe it's your secret hobby. But it's not mine. I'm just responding to your warped blah-blah.